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jcannon
02-14-2008, 07:25 PM
Bindery wants collation marks on sigs for perfect bound book. I'm trying a smartmark. No problem but...we have templates built that are two up so it delivers off of the press as, for example, 2 separate 16 page sigs but the sigs are identical.

The top two rows of the plate have pages 1 thru 16 (front and back) and the bottom two rows of the plate have the exact same pages just duplicated from the top. Preps, and it states so in the manual, places the collation mark in the grindoff between the low folio and the high folio but on our 2 up templates it only places it between 1 and 16 on the bottom half of the plate and does not put it between 1 and 16 on the top half of the plate. Shouldn't a "smartmark" see two page 1's and put it on both?

As a test I changed the page numbers on the bottom half from 1 and 16 to 101 and 116 and the collation mark disappeared completely from the template. I would have thought it would have jumped up to the 1 and 16 on the top half of the plate but nooooooo...it vanished completely.

So the question is...how do I make it show up on both sigs of a 2 up template? And I need the mark to be in the exact same place on both sigs...not stepped on the 2nd one from the first one.

Thanks,
Joe

Natalie
02-14-2008, 07:48 PM
For 2-up templates of the same sig, you have to use a static mark.

ThePorge
02-21-2008, 01:19 PM
I believe what you need is a function (Multiple Sections) that is available only in Preps Pro. I only have Prep Plus, but from my reading of the manual Preps Pro lets you treat one press sheet as two separate signatures. It sucks, because I just had the same issue that required two 16's on one press sheet for a book that contains almost 500 pages. It really sucks when you have to put creep in.

jcannon
02-21-2008, 08:54 PM
I believe what you need is a function (Multiple Sections) that is available only in Preps Pro. I only have Prep Plus, but from my reading of the manual Preps Pro lets you treat one press sheet as two separate signatures. It sucks, because I just had the same issue that required two 16's on one press sheet for a book that contains almost 500 pages. It really sucks when you have to put creep in.

Well, I have Preps Pro and if there is a way to make this happen I'd love to know how. Where in the manual did you find this? I've looked and did not see it.

Edit: I've tried the multiple section feature in Preps Pro and it doesn't put the sig in the same spot on both signatures. It steps them like they are two different signatures.

ThePorge
02-22-2008, 12:03 PM
Ok, my bad. I miss-understood your original question. I think Natalie has your answer and you'll have to use a static mark.

tapin2
02-22-2008, 01:59 PM
You can use SmartMarks, (with Preps Pro).

Two caveats...

[Part 1] Numbering the Signature
One the Signature HAS to have been defined as a multiple Section signature. In the Add Signature screen, there will be a box; Sections <<default is "1">>, you will need to enter "2" for the two separate bound pieces you wish to produce out of one signature (press sheet).

While the signature will appear exactly the way any sig appears, however you will notice is that all the pages will have an additional red number, this represents a "Book Section". Make all the mods for your gutters/margin to get the pages into position.

Number your Book Section one 1-16. Once that has been completed; double click on the page numbering tool, change the page number BACK to "1"; and then on the Sections, change that to "2".

At this point start numbering you second Book Section from 1-16, as you do this the red number one while change to a two indicating the second Book Section.

[Part 2] SmartMark Collation
Open your existing Smart Collation Mark, you will have a new Section menu, choose "1", Save a Copy As..., let's call this "Section_1_CollMark".

Ok and Duplicate... change the name to "Section_2_CollMark", now change the Section number to "2"; Save a Copy As...

There you are! Repeat based on the number of Section you might have. i.e. 4-up, 8-up, etc.

This is only made possible when you build the signature by enabling the Multiple Section in the initial Add Signature screen. Currently there is no way of re-editing an existing signature, so you will have to start with a new Add Signature.

Now with a Preps job; Signature selection, when you choose a multiple book section signature, you will have the opportunity to enter the page start number. Check your Preps Online Help for more info on that.

Hope that helps!

jcannon
02-22-2008, 04:47 PM
You can use SmartMarks, (with Preps Pro).
...
Hope that helps!

Thanks for that detailed explanation. I will give that a try.

jcannon
02-25-2008, 07:36 PM
You can use SmartMarks, (with Preps Pro).

Two caveats...

[Part 1] Numbering the Signature
One the Signature HAS to have been defined as a multiple Section signature. In the Add Signature screen, there will be a box; Sections <<default is "1">>, you will need to enter "2" for the two separate bound pieces you wish to produce out of one signature (press sheet).

While the signature will appear exactly the way any sig appears, however you will notice is that all the pages will have an additional red number, this represents a "Book Section". Make all the mods for your gutters/margin to get the pages into position.

Number your Book Section one 1-16. Once that has been completed; double click on the page numbering tool, change the page number BACK to "1"; and then on the Sections, change that to "2".

At this point start numbering you second Book Section from 1-16, as you do this the red number one while change to a two indicating the second Book Section.

[Part 2] SmartMark Collation
Open your existing Smart Collation Mark, you will have a new Section menu, choose "1", Save a Copy As..., let's call this "Section_1_CollMark".

Ok and Duplicate... change the name to "Section_2_CollMark", now change the Section number to "2"; Save a Copy As...

There you are! Repeat based on the number of Section you might have. i.e. 4-up, 8-up, etc.

This is only made possible when you build the signature by enabling the Multiple Section in the initial Add Signature screen. Currently there is no way of re-editing an existing signature, so you will have to start with a new Add Signature.

Now with a Preps job; Signature selection, when you choose a multiple book section signature, you will have the opportunity to enter the page start number. Check your Preps Online Help for more info on that.

Hope that helps!

This method does not work as the multiple web feature images two sets of plates with the duplicate page numbers on them. That is not what I need. I need them both on one set of plates.

tapin2
02-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Joe, sound like you have multiple signatures (a, b, c, and d); you are correct, that is not what I described.

My goal was to have you with one signature (a & b); then manipulate that to have the 2 separate book sections. Please re-read the first step.

jcannon
02-26-2008, 07:49 AM
Joe, sound like you have multiple signatures (a, b, c, and d); you are correct, that is not what I described.

My goal was to have you with one signature (a & b); then manipulate that to have the 2 separate book sections. Please re-read the first step.

I still don't think it will work as I need some different smart marks on the top and the bottom. For example our color bars are on the top of the plate and they can't be on the bottom half of the plate too. Our electronic registration eye marks are on the bottom half of the plate and not on the top half and we need to be able to change the distance between the two signatures depending on the trim size of the height of the pages. See the attached image for exactly how I need the signature to look and see if you think it can be done with the multiple web signature.

Thanks for your response. I do appreciate it.

jamie.stotz
02-26-2008, 09:14 PM
The color bars and eye marks are not affected by having multiple sections. They will work like they always have. The multiple sections will only affect the collation mark. I tried it and it seemed to work. I didn't need to use two collation marks. I used one and it showed up on both sections. I attached a screen shot that shows what I did.

Jamie

tapin2
02-26-2008, 09:38 PM
Joe, based on what you have shown me, I have created something similar using multiple sections, please review this in conjunction with my previous thread. This can be accomplished, w/o any worries.

jcannon
02-27-2008, 08:25 AM
Thanks to both of you. I'll give those methods a try and see what I come up with.

jcannon
03-07-2008, 05:30 PM
Thanks for everyones help and suggestions on this topic. The Pro version "multi sections" feature does work quite nicely for this but, isn't there always a but, it means having to re-create many, many templates that have been made over the years. You cannot edit a template to make it a "multi section" template so you have to re-create them from ground zero. Not something I was eager to start so...

I do believe I've figured it out. I made a smart mark collection by creating a new folder in the smartmarks folder and then created two separate smartmarks like the two shots below in that folder. Preps will then see it as a collection and add them both into the template. The only difference in them is the offset number. In the 3rd pic you'll see I have one section on the top half of the plate and then a duplicate on the bottom half. Using one smartmark it always placed it on the bottom sig. I don't know why but it did. Anyway, our bindery wants the collation mark 7 1/16 from the head trim (don't ask) so for the bottom mark I put 7.0625 for the offset. Now it still puts the top mark in relation to the head trim of the bottom Pg. 1 but I changed the offset number to 29.8125 which places it 7 1/16 from the head trim of the top sig. These marks work on any trim size because if we change the trim size we also have to change the spacing between the two sigs to maintain a distance of 22.75 for the press cutoff so these smartmark collation collections work for all sizes of trim for 2-up templates. I just end up with one smartmark for 1 up sigs and a smartmark collection containing 2 smartmarks for the 2 up sigs. If I had a four up I could create another smartmark collection for it. We only do 2 ups though so I'm good to go...until the bindery changes their mind again!

Photo links:

http://www.b4print.com/Junk/Preps%20Collation%20Marks/sm_coll_bot.gif

http://www.b4print.com/Junk/Preps%20Collation%20Marks/sm_coll_top.gif

http://www.b4print.com/Junk/Preps%20Collation%20Marks/template.gif

jamie.stotz
03-07-2008, 07:59 PM
It is possible to change a 1 section template to have more than one section. You do it with a text editor, not in Preps. If you need to do this, I can find out what you need to change.