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prepper
02-27-2008, 10:53 PM
I saw the thread below and I am having trouble with this also. If anyone can help me on this I would very much appreciate it. The majority of our work is all books of the same format and same size. So we try to match up the books if we can. We run them double parallel on our web press. Once the signature is printed and folded one book is on the top of the sig and a different one on the bottom. Our template works fine as long as you only need one signature. The problem is when we need 2 signatures and 2 different books on these signatures. For example right now we have 2 64pg books and we need to match them together. If I put both files in the job and put pg1-64 from book 1 and then pg1-64 from book 2 right after that, select the template I want to use and add the signatures I want to use it does not put the pages in the right order after the first 32 pgs. The work around that I have been using is to make a seperate job for each signature and only place the pages in the run list that are need for that particular signature. I have tried multiple ways and making a template with sections to get this to work and have not been able to yet. I am attaching a screen shot of our 32pg signature. It is the one that we would use to lay out the 2 books above ( I know in reality it is a 64 pg siganture its just labeled as a 32 here). I will also attach a pdf of a sample job done with this signature so that you can see the order of the pages when done with 2 of these signatures and a mock up of the template to see how preps renumbered the pages. In these sample jobs book 1 is a seperate file from book 2. Any help in this matter would be appreciated and any suggestions on a different way to number the template to get it to work would be appreciated. I would love to be able to have one templete for all of these books. Thanks

digital@sig-1.com
02-28-2008, 02:48 PM
Without even looking at your .pdfs, I have a kind of stupid questions. Under the pull down that says "Template Information" is it set to "saddle stitch?" It seems like kind of an obvious solution, but I figured I need to start somewhere.

The way I do it with separate files is in the run list. Usually, around here, we will get the Cover 17 x 11 in spreads as 1 file, and the Guts 8.5 x 11 in a second file. I will name one XXXX_CVR and one XXXX_Guts where XXXX is the job number. In Preps I will strip two templates within the same file. In my example, I will have one 25 x 19 1-up 2-out Work & Turn 17 x 11 and one template 25 x 19 1-up 8pp Sheetwise 8.5 x 11.

Under Template --> Template information I will select "saddle stitch" from the pull down. When I create my run list the order needs to be: CVR_1, Guts_1, .... Guts_X (where X is the last page, and must be divisible by 4), CVR_2. For a saddle stitch template, the back cover must be the last page in the list, so if you get one of those idiot designers who makes it all one file, but sets it up with the cover as a spread, but on an 8.5 x 11 page layout so the last page is first, then CVR_2 is the first page in the run list and CVR_1 is the last page.

If you make multiple identical sigs and number them as you described, then Template --> Template Information must be set to "flat work" and the run list and template alike must be in exact order per the numbering. It could also be done with a single sig as flat work, but then your run list must be ordered (let's say it's a 28 page book) 1-2-3-4-25-26-27-28 for a 8pp sig-1, 5-6-7-8-21-22-23-24 for 8pp sig-2 and so on. I hope this helps.
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digital@sig-1.com
02-28-2008, 04:26 PM
I just looked at the attached pdfs and they look to me like they are not numbered properly. Could you please repost the sheet size, number of pages and page size (not spread size); I just want to strip a quick template and see how it numbers - I'll take a screen shot and post it when I get done.
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prepper
02-28-2008, 06:52 PM
Thanks for looking at this. I will just attach the template that we are using when we have to do 2 different books on the same sig. When you mentioned they had the wrong page numbering i just wanted to point out that the screen capture i put on there is the only one that actually shows the way we numbered the pages. The mock up pdf is how preps is automatically changing the numbering when i try to use the same signature twice in one job. And the sample job pdf is the template i am attaching laid out in a job with 2 32pg signatures used out of this template. With files placed in that a put numbers on so that i could see where it was actually putting each page. And also the sample job pdf was done with all of book one in the run list 1-64 then book 2 1-64. Also, Yes I have the templates setup as saddle stitched. I do have templates right now that are setup as flat work with all the signatures setup under one signature in the template. So I have templates setup that actually when printed will be 4 signatures, under one signature in the template. But I would like to have one template to work for all the books we do. The reason being is the only books we print here are for ourselves we don't print for other people. Our company designs everything we do and prints about 95% of what we do. I would say about 95% of our books are the same size and format. For that 95% of our work it would be really nice if i could just have one template to use for these and make changes to every time we need a new colorbar or we change our marks. If i could get it setup this way i could probably have 3 template that we use and that would be it except for the occasional special project that comes through.

The way our jobs come through we get separate files for the cover and text. This is because our covers are printed on our Sheetfed Heidelberg and our text is printed on a Harris web press. So the cover and guts are laid out completely separate from each other. The sheet size is width 35" x height 22.75". The number of pages in the books i had in my example are 64pg books. So the job actually has 128pgs in it. I also just realized looking back at my sample job pdf that when i printed it to the pdf it put 2 copies of each flat in it becasue of the way i printed it. And I am sorry if i am confusing because i keep saying that i need to do 2 32pg sigs for this (I know to you they are actually 64 pg sigs but we call them 32 pg sigs because they only have 32 pgs in them from each book). Sorry to be so long but I wanted to try and explain a little more of what i am trying to do. Also if you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask and if you need anymore info about the way we are doing it i will provide it.

Maybe what i am trying to do isn't possible.
Thanks

prepper
02-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Sorry, I haven't used this forum very much. I didn't realize that you couldn't attach templates. If you need anymore info to recreate it let me know or i could email you the template if you would like.
Thanks

digital@sig-1.com
02-28-2008, 07:36 PM
What size are the individual pages? 5.5 x 8.5?
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prepper
02-28-2008, 07:39 PM
The page sizes are 5.4375" x 8.375".

digital@sig-1.com
02-28-2008, 09:04 PM
OK. I think I have something that will work. The key is intermingling book two within book 1 your run list. In other words, when you create your run list, you will run pages 1-32 of book 1, pages 1-64 of book 2 and pages 33-64 of book 1 in that order for book 2 to fit within book 1 for a single 128 page book. for 2 separate 64 page books make your run list pages 1-64 of book 1, pages 1-64 of book 2 in order, although two separate run lists might make more sense. This template is set for auto add, so you will end up with 4 sigs, 32 pages per sig sheetwise. It's a fold-in-half, followed by a right-angle fold, followed by a double parallel fold for the order. Don't forget to add creep (shingle/push-out).
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jamie.stotz
02-28-2008, 10:53 PM
I played around with this and also came to the conclusion that you can't do it without intermingling the books in the run list. I think the reason is that you are essentially asking Preps to do a book that is both saddle stitched and perfect bound at the same time.

digital@sig-1.com
02-29-2008, 02:45 PM
Yeah - usually it's all about the run list. But I have to ask; was the template helpful at all? I left all the marks off, so you could add those specific for the needs in your shop.
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tapin2
02-29-2008, 07:52 PM
This can be done... you need Preps Pro.

I have recorded a quicktime movie of how to, and I also have the Preps JOB and TPL file available on my dotmac (http://idisk.mac.com/tapin2-Public) site.

You will be prompted for a username <Public> and Password <POCpreps>.

Inside the Preps folder you will find a folder called "double parallel" here you will find the resources I have mentioned.

Let me know if that helped, tapin2

prepper
03-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Alright I got back to work this morning and read the replies to this post and all the replies helped but nothing actually solved the problem except for tapin's. I had tried the same thing you showed in the video but with a saddle stitched template. All of our work here is saddle stitched or come and go. I never thought to try making the template perfect bound to get this to work. I can now layout 2 different books, in one job, for multiple signatures, and have the pages in sequential order and not intermingled. Works great now. The only modification I had to make was the page number that you made each section start with. I was using the pdf that you made it match to show the way preps was numbering it wrong when it auto added the signatures as saddle stitched and it numbered them the same even if I had multiple sections. I thought I should be able to do this with preps but my only mistake was not using a perfect bound template to do this. Anyone that is having these same problems should make a template like tapin showed in his video. Thanks for all the help everyone. This is great now I will be able to go from using 23 different templates (for the different sig combinations we have) to only using 3. I think Jamie hit it right on the head "I think the reason is that you are essentially asking Preps to do a book that is both saddle stitched and perfect bound at the same time." but it never dawned on me to try it perfect bound. Thanks again

tapin2
03-03-2008, 09:46 PM
Glad to help, I love puzzles like these...

prepper
03-04-2008, 03:53 PM
I guess I got a little ahead of myself yesterday. I did not take enough time to really look over this before going ahead and building a template based off of this for what we do. When I originally tried the template you sent me I didn't print it out and fold it up and check it for page order. I just went off of that I thought it looked correct. After checking into it further this template will not work they way i thought. You can't put the pages in the run list in sequential order and have it work. The reason is because perfect bound templates will not order the pages for saddle stitched layout no matter how you tell each section to start. It tries to number them like it should to where the sigs will stack on top of each other instead of inside of each other. BUT using this template will still work better than what i had i will just have to intermingle the pages. Example for a 16,32 the first book in the run list will be in this order 1-8,41-48,9-40 and then the same order for the second book right after that. I could not even make a saddle stitched template to work even intermingling the pages. So this has improved the way i am doing my jobs a lot but i would still like to find a way to be able to layout this out with all the pages in sequential order. I will use this new template for now and i will still continue to figure out another way to get what i want to work. If anyone else finds a way to do this i would appreciate it if you would share it. Thanks again for all of the help.

digital@sig-1.com
03-05-2008, 02:35 PM
When I asked before, you said it was a saddle stitch, which is what I made. Afterwards, you changed and said it was perfect bound. Yes, perfect bound would have a different numbering system; not only that, the template I made has the pages butted up against each other. The perfect bound, if there was bleed and not a chop cut, would have to have space around each page. It sounds to me like your only recourse is to have one template for the saddle-stitch portion, one template for the perfect bound portion, and a separate run list for each portion as well (4 elements). If I correctly understand the issue, there is no better or more efficient way to do it as one entity.
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prepper
03-05-2008, 08:31 PM
I did not go back and look to see what I put in my posts at this time. But I was talking about doing saddle stitched books not perfect bound. If I accidentally said perfect bound somewhere i am sorry but I don't believe i did. What i was saying was that the only way to get what i want to work is to use a perfect bound template for my saddle stitched layout. Maybe you all have figured out a way to get this to work with a saddle stitched template but i cant get it to work. I have tried a lot of different ways and even tried to figure out how to intermingle the pages in the run list to come out on the right order on a saddle stitched template but have never gotten that to work. Then tapin by his video and what he was trying do helped me figure out that it can be done if i make a perfect bound template for my saddle stitched layouts. I have to intermingle the pages by using this method but it is better than what i was doing before having to use 20 templates for all our layouts when i am able to use 1 this way. I would still like to figure out how to make a template for a saddle stitched layout that I could put the the pages for both books in sequential order and have both of them actually come out in order. Sorry if i am not being clear enough on what i am trying to do. But I will attach the template that was using before the new one and layout a a job just the way i would like it to work so that you can look at the job and the template and know what I am trying to say. And you can see that when i do the job the way i am trying to the order the pages actually come out in. Maybe by this you can make sense of my confusion:). Sometimes i don't explain things good enough for other people to understand what i am saying. Thanks again for all the help and i would appreciate any more input that anyone would have.

jamie.stotz
03-06-2008, 04:29 PM
Here's something else you could try. I don't have time right now to try it myself.

Make a template with the number of sigs you will need. You won't be reusing the same sig more than once in a job, sig 2 will have different numbers than sig 1.

Make it flatwork.

Number the template with the actual numbers that you want to end up on each page. Number the first book all the way through, for example 1-64. Then start the second book with 65-128.

When you add the sigs to the job, make the starting page number 1 on every sig.

This process will effectively disable Preps' need to figure out where it thinks the pages should go.

prepper
03-06-2008, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the input. That is the way we have been doing it. But to be able to have a template for every combination we do we have to have about 18 templates. Then on top of that if we change one mark i then have to go in and change that mark for every flat in all of these templates. So i have been trying to come up with a way to be able to have one template and just the basic signatures in that template. While working on this yesterday i found a way to do what I have been wanting to do and I have tested it and it works. I do not have time right now to tell you what I did and how i did it. I will post the info when I have more time, probably over the weekend. Thanks

jamie.stotz
03-06-2008, 08:49 PM
The batch find and replace feature in TextWrangler is useful for changing things in a bunch of template files all at once.

Natalie
03-13-2008, 03:37 PM
I have figured this out, and you won't believe how simple. Bring in your multiple section templates as you normally would. Go to your signature list and highlight your temp.>Ctrl "I">manually put in the first page # of that sig. and lock it in, just repeat this for the rest of the signatures. Hope this will help to minimize your templates.
Natalie